I’ve been trying Lemmy for a little while and wasn’t sure how to feel about it.
Today, I wanted to start blocking the most high-censorship instances until I could find a fully zero-censorship instance and simply block all the ones with censorship. Filter bots, not people.
When I looked into it further, I found out there are no zero-censorship instances, because Lemmy relies on a broken “federation” system where each instance is supposed to be able to fetch posts from other instances, but it’s never been finished to reach a fully working state. Lemmy’s official docs say you can’t even do federation over Tor at all. This means it uses DNS, so it won’t actually allow Lemmy instances to fetch posts from each other freely, it just gets blocked instantly and easily, every time the authorities feel like blocking anything.
So you can only ever have the “average joe lemmy” and “average joe reddit” with everything approved by the authorities, and then “tor copies of lemmy” and “tor copies of reddit” where you have free speech but you can only reach other nerds.
People seem to think Lemmy is different because this weird censorship fetish is extremely popular and most of you are happy to see bans happen to certain people, not just bots, so a small Lemmy that censors certain people feels fundamentally different from a big reddit that censors more people. But it’s the exact same thing, it’s reddit.
When reddit was smaller, you could say basically anything you wanted there, they just wouldn’t let it reach the main audience. Then it got too big, and any tiny part of the audience you could reach would be too big, so they won’t let you talk at all.
Lemmy is now the small part of reddit where you can say whatever you want, separated from the main audience, until too much growth happens and you have to move again.
It’s not actually a solution to reddit. It’s not designed to be different, it’s designed to match the past today and then match reddit’s present tomorrow, while being part of a system that’s about the same in past, present, and future.
Last year, this year, and next year, you’re posting somewhere it won’t be seen by many people, and the system that charges people for ambulance rides is getting another year of ambulance ride revenue, facing no organized resistance. There’s no difference here.
Lemmy urgently needs federation between onion service instances and DNS addresses in order to actually do what most users seem to wish it would do: allow discussion outside what the corporate authorities allow, while outgrowing reddit & helping undo the damage social media has done to human communication.
I’ve read less than half of the comments here, but my main feeling is that the downvotes only happened because they didn’t understood what you said, in their mind you want something even less censored than 4Chan, which will lead to something even worse than 4Chan, they believe that moderation helps in healthy discussions.
I’ve got reserves on that, for example mods should only ask for the user to edit h.er.is comment instead of instabanning them for life, and as i said elsewhere our states don’t only ask platforms but are making laws to “moderate” the internet.But that’s not what you were talking about, these downvotes should tell you that your thought hasn’t matured enough to be presented as a clear project, like here :
I will not be spinning up instances of anything. I will seed hashes in bittorrent-like P2P networks, I will put my posts where they fit, I will look for posts from others in the most anti-censorship ways I can find, and I will hope devs and server admins create a version of Lemmy that’s fitting for more of my posts - while hurrying toward a possible future where Tor isn’t enough to make Lemmy relevant anymore, because P2P networks become the only place worth posting anything.
At first i was furious because i thought that many people opposed freedom of expression, but after reading more comments i’m relieved that it’s still seen favorably by a majority.
The problem here seems to be that your “vision” isn’t clear enough, and that’s probably why you wanted to discuss it with others. The good news is that people didn’t oppose your ideasIt’s a bit late in France so i don’t intend to stay much more online(, and you’ve been at it for more than 12 hours), even if i’d be interested in your answer because i frankly still don’t understand you, sry :/
From what i understood :
- When you’re critcizing the incomplete/broken system of federation, would it be enough if instances can’t block each other(, even if you’d probably don’t mind if users can block instances) ? I’ve seen that same thought in /c/fediverse a few times, along the lines of being able to access a real r/all ;
- Instances shouldn’t communicate through DNS because authorities could block it, hence why you’re suggesting to use Tor, it’d make Lemmy a.n free/unconstrained network ;
- You’re making a mistake i.m.o. when stating that Lemmy will become censored like Reddit, because you can’t have the same Lemmy admins for all instances. So, while Reddit banned republicans and communists, it can’t be done for Lemmy(, unless through national/federal laws). You probably already knew that, just in case(, bonus by the devs) ;
- It feels like the core of your speech ? In any case, i’m missing almost all of what’s surrounding it hence the comment above.
I’m saying Lemmy’s censorship is the same as reddit’s because we still have roughly the same groups as on reddit.
I still post to about the same audience or smaller, not bigger than peak reddit.
The people saying “ambulance rides shouldn’t cost money” are still drowned out by the people saying “poor people should die because I’m rich enough to be the one people listen to” so I don’t think we should choose who to listen to based on money.
If reddit worked as a system the authorities could use to control discussion, what we have now with reddit and Lemmy definitely isn’t any less useful for the authorities that way, because I seem to be making slower progress towards making ambulance rides free, instead of faster progress.
I’m saying Lemmy’s censorship is the same as reddit’s because we still have roughly the same groups as on reddit.
I still post to about the same audience or smaller, not bigger than peak reddit.If these two sentences are meant to be understood together, then it’s misleading to use the word censorship i think, it’s more a mix of a lack of visibility and echo chambers, in which case these are two things that don’t seem debatable/false.
If i understood you correctly, could you expand on your solution ?then it’s misleading to use the word censorship i think, it’s more a mix of a lack of visibility and echo chambers
But the authorities cause it willingly, so it’s censorship, imo. Maybe debatable
If i understood you correctly, could you expand on your solution ?
Another way of looking at the problem is, without Tor federation, all the federated instances will be 100% one group of people, and each Tor instance will be 100% another group
That’s not healthy, there needs to be a balance where each place has some of each group. I don’t want a place full of nothing but pedophiles, but I also don’t want a place full of nothing but people who send pedophiles to their own place. I want a place full of nothing but people who agree everyone should be allowed to talk
To do that, would it be enough if instances can’t block each other, or if users could unblock the foreign instances blocked by their original instances ?
You’d also want some .onion instances, and that they could communicate with those using the DNS.
Am i missing something ?And how do you force current instances like lemmy.world or sh.itjust.works then to tolerate /some/ pedophiles exactly?
Because that’s what would have to happen under your system.
- You want instances that can’t block each other, even if you’d probably don’t mind if users can block instances, i’ve seen that same thought in /c/fediverse a few times ;
How would this even be possible? This is essentially forced platforming.
I’ve probably read less than hald of the comments here, but my main feeling is that the downvotes only happened because they didn’t understood what you said, in their mind you want something even less censored than 4Chan, which will lead to something even worse than 4Chan, they believe that moderation helps in healthy discussions.
He does. By his own admission he wants quite literally, zero moderation. Except for spam. What do you think that would lead to, honestly? What do you imagine the outcome of that would be? What sort of community would that become?
The problem here seems to be that your “vision” isn’t clear enough, and that’s probably why you wanted to discuss it with others. The good news is that people didn’t oppose your ideas
Almost everyone in this thread opposed him bar a few people.
What do you imagine the outcome of that would be?
Depends, i haven’t understood what he talked about, and neither have you. What if it’s a moderation made by the user h.er.im.self, while taking into account the vote of users with the same “tags”/preferences as him ? That’s not his idea but other methods are possible, in any case it’s aiming for an ideal of freedom, it’s left to us to see the best path in attaining it, and internet is still in its infancy.
Almost everyone in this thread opposed him bar a few people.
And they didn’t understood what he said, and you’re always answering aside
They did. I’m sorry, but they did. Most of them focused on his inane objection to any and all moderation and fundamental misunderstandings of the fediverse and how it actually works. He doesn’t really know anything about it, and makes baseless about what’s happened on the site that he refuses to back up.
But again, the core thing here is that most of the people on the fediverse are not free speech absolutists who want to operate in an instance with no moderation.
Lemmy urgently needs federation between onion service instances and DNS addresses in order to actually do what most users seem to wish it would do: allow discussion outside what the corporate authorities allow, while outgrowing reddit & helping undo the damage social media has done to human communication.
“allow discussion outside what the corporate authorities allow” apparently meaning “Allow CSAM”
So, until today, you thought the corporate authorities allowed CSAM on reddit?
Or are you just upset that I say what I mean, and mean what I say?
So, until today, you thought the corporate authorities allowed CSAM on reddit?
No, I was pointing out that the “discussion” outside of what the “corporate authorities allow” is according to you, actually just CSAM. I don’t think anyone here wants to “allow” in that.
No, I was pointing out that the “discussion” outside of what the “corporate authorities allow” is according to you, actually just CSAM.
No, you’re just upset I say what I mean, and mean what I say.
I never said CSAM is the only content censored by the authorities.
I don’t think anyone here wants to “allow” in that.
Didn’t ask what you think everyone else thinks.
Also, can I add that Reddit - per its own standards, hasn’t failed. It’s a massive website with a lot of traffic.
We think it’s failing, and poisoning the atmosphere - but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t been a big success. A lot of people on the Fediverse do not aspire to grow to be the size of Reddit, and think thats both unrealistic and undesirable.
Also, can I add that Reddit - per its own standards, hasn’t failed.
Didn’t ask. Why waste time with it?
It’s a massive website with a lot of traffic.
Again, didn’t ask. Why waste time typing this?
We think it’s failing, and poisoning the atmosphere - but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t been a big success.
Again, didn’t ask. Why waste the time?
A lot of people on the Fediverse do not aspire to grow to be the size of Reddit, and think thats both unrealistic and undesirable.
Again, didn’t ask. Got a reason for typing this, other than to waste my time?
Your original post and comments seem to suggest the end-goal of the Fediverse is to get as big as Reddit, and that it failed due to being overly censorious. It didn’t, and it is not the overall goal of the Fediverse.
Your original post and comments seem to suggest the end-goal of the Fediverse is to get as big as Reddit, and that it failed due to being overly censorious.
Incorrect. You’re aware that’s not what I was suggesting, you’re just making shit up and pretending it’s how it “seems” because you’re very dishonest.
It didn’t, and it is not the overall goal of the Fediverse.
Didn’t ask.
I never said CSAM is the only content censored by the authorities.
Okay, what other content are people on the Fediverse unable to talk about and share?
Okay, what other content are people on the Fediverse unable to talk about and share?
What do you mean? People on the Fediverse are able to talk about and share CSAM, so how would stuff they can’t be “other content” in the way you used the words in that sentence?
Do you mean “share widely,” in which case, you know the answer is everything and it’s weird that you’d ask yet another question you know the answer to?
What do you mean? People on the Fediverse are able to talk about and share CSAM, so how would stuff they can’t be “other content” in the way you used the words in that sentence?
No, people are not able to share CSAM on the Fediverse. Doing so gets your account banned.
What specific topics can you not say on the Fediverse, or indeed any website outside of TOR without the threat of being arrested?
No, people are not able to share CSAM on the Fediverse. Doing so gets your account banned.
What do you think “banned” means? It’s not “killed in the past with time travel” or whatever you’re implying.
What specific topics can you not say on the Fediverse, or indeed any website outside of TOR without the threat of being arrested?
According to Trevor Moore, it’s illegal to say “I want to kill the President of the United States of America”
The no-censorship crowd is funny. “I wanted to block everyone whose admins block someone, in order to find the people whose admins don’t block anyone, so I could talk to the few people I hadn’t blocked because they don’t block people.”
(And that’s ignoring the traditional entitlement in that people somewhere else deciding not to listen to you somehow means you’re censored locally.)
Hypocracy – and conspiracy-level rambling – aside, there’s actually an interesting kernel of commentary here on how we talk about joining and administering Fedi. On the one hand, we say that newcomers shouldn’t worry about which instance to start out on, because every one connects to every other, but on the other we celebrate how the instanced architecture allows admins control over which other instances to connect to. And then you have the deeper issue of the vast majority of the software assuming DNS, so even if admins do want to connect to Tor instances, they can’t feasably do so without a fair bit of host-system tweaking. Yeah, those mixed messages are just the emergent result of which layer of abstraction we’re talking about in any given conversation, but it would be nice if we could find language that doesn’t take literally the opposite tack on each successive layer.
I don’t know how to respond to this comment. Upvoting and leaving a confused reply.
I.d.k. if you’ve heard of reclaim the net, you may be interested to give them a follow, and if you know similar websites/accounts i’m interested, thanks for the thread !
(thanks as well to the moderators for allowing you to speak freely, this should be a basic freedom)Here’s one more example of censorship i’ve just learned about : I’ve already been permanently demonetized by YouTube and had albums removed from Spotify, this time under a false allegation of transphobia. Felt pertinent to add somewhere.
I hope in the near future you’ll find more of a paying audience than YouTube or Spotify have ever offered you
Nah, i’m stupid sorry, it was a quote from a post by David Rovics, i should have put the «…», my bad.
He’s the only anti-imperialist singer i know, along with Red Creators Network, worth checking out i think :)Got it, will do 🙏
What do you mean by “censorship” and what is your example of the “high-censorship instance” doing it?
This started with me blocking lemmy.world because I heard they defederate “tankie” instances
Better get ready to block sh.itjust.works then too because it also defederates those same instances.
Right. If you read my original post, one of the first things I mentioned was how I looked for a a fully zero-censorship instance/cluster to transition into. Why do you keep needing things repeated?
So why block lemmy.world and not sh.itjust.works when it’s also guilty here?
I don’t know. Is there some reason to do that? My idea seems to make more sense to me.
Or did you mean temporarily, like, why should lemmy.world be first?
You said the reason you blocked lemmy.world was because it blocked the “tankie instances”. Guess what? Sh.itjust.works is exactly the same.
Or did you mean temporarily, like, why should lemmy.world be first?
No, I mean why aren’t you just blocking every instance that blocks those instances.
I agreed with the title, but then downvoted immediately upon reading your post.
Censorship is not Reddit’s problem. It’s enshittification.
Reddit didn’t fail because Spez has some niche political opinions he pushes and you aren’t allowed to say, it failed because its algorithm/UI is structured to farm users and turn to shit.
Lemmy has major problems and power tripping mods, but its existential issue (IMO) is collapse from spam, trolls, attention algorithms, commercialization, and so on.
But federation is a good first step to avoiding the enshittification traps, like the original internet did until Google/Facebook got such a grip on it.
Personally my ideal thing would be an instance that does no blocking and the technology allowing me to block in all ways. I would also like to subscribe to others block lists. I also want blocking to be symetric. When I block or someone blocks me we both effectively do not exist to the other. That being said instances need to block to be in compliance with local laws. In addition I totally understand instances that are about something to block instances which are mean to them. Like if its about lgbtq and anothers about how nazism is the way and another is about christiantiy as a loving accepting faith while another is about christianity being about prosprity doctrine.
Agreement:
I’m glad you support an instance that does no blocking, and instead gives you all the tools
Disagreement:
Custom feeds and labels solve basically the same problems as block lists without being anywhere near as harmful
“Symmetric blocking” as you call it, cannot coexist with public discussion, and is not natural or appropriate for a political “town square”
Real laws are rarely localized, so saying “local laws” makes it sound like you think “laws of man” are real
I think that is bs. Blocking imitates what we do in meatspace. Avoid people we don’t like and hang out with people we do. No one would argue with getting toxic individuals in their life but blocking online is creating a bubble. We need to get back to what is natural. No one has a right for people to view their crap and its fine for them to restrict folks from hearing their crap to. custome feeds and labels do not cut it.
You cannot just make people stop being able to hear you or reply to you in a public place.
The average person could not just avoid every political opinion they disagreed with before the TV was widespread.
Stop ignoring stuff willingly.
You sure can. You avoid them. You don’t go to the places they go. The internet piles everyone together and humans can’t handle that scale. People heard other political opinion from more reasonable people who mixed with different groups that happened to intersect at a place. If the asshole showed up they would leave but the other person would not but they might catch up with the other person and hear some relevant things the asshole had to say. Given the asshole is just an asshole because it rubs the first person the wrong way. Its this middle person that enables the flow.
You sure can. You avoid them.
Avoiding people alone does not make them unable to hear you or reply to you in public places. If you meant “avoiding people and not having any public opinions” then maybe, but before TV, that would have kinda fucked up any attempt at political involvement.
You don’t go to the places they go.
Again, does nothing for the “public places” issue unless you also make sure none of your opinions are public, which is a moot point in the context of trying to make ambulances stop costing money.
The internet piles everyone together and humans can’t handle that scale.
Some humans can. I’m one of them, and I’m trying to help others learn to do the same, before Earth goes extinct. It’s quite urgent.
People heard other political opinion from more reasonable people who mixed with different groups that happened to intersect at a place.
People were more reasonable, but they didn’t magically make their birthplaces match locations full of agreeable people, or have the freedom to live wherever they wanted, or even always have opinions shared by any large group of people anywhere.
It’s this middle person that enables the flow.
This middle person has not solved the problem of people using screens to echo chamber themselves, ever since TVs became widespread.
This middle person was more of a factor back when people spent more time in public places, especially in eras where people felt safer discussing politics, like in the US when it was an anti-Nazi country.
I don’t see what you are not getting if I avoid someone and do my speaking away from them. They don’t hear me and I don’t hear them. To some degree echo chambers have always existed. You go to any random bar and it will often have somewhat of similar attitudes amont the patrons but there will still be lively discussion. One reason is some of the patrons also patronize another bar that others don’t but some of the others patronize a bar the first group does not. Anyway I don’t really care if you like blocking or not but I will be on the technology that allows it and you will be on one that does not so the really great thing is eventually it will be like we blocked each other. Even though I am not looking to block you currently even though I could. So I guess im saying your requirements for what you want your space to be will create an echo chamber for you. The federation is an echo chamber that blocks folks that are only on xitter or facebook or reddit but not necessarily completely as their are communities dedicated to postings stuff from those outside sources (which I personally block). Those people reposting from the other sources are that middle person and although I don’t want to hear the stuff they post from these other social media sites I will still hear things from them that are influenced from hanging in those spaces.
eventually it will be like we blocked each other.
Not symmetrically though. You’ll probably still try to have public political opinions, so I’ll probably still be able to read and respond to those, it would just be you that can’t see my responses. Over time, this should drive pretty much everyone into places without symmetric blocking.
To be clear, you seem chill, so I personally do not intend to talk shit behind your back, or anything like that.
The first sentence of this makes the rest of it seem too long to read.
If you want me to read this, could you give me a shorter reply to read first that just addresses something I said quickly and directly?
I don’t want Lemmy to be zero censorship.
In every case I’ve known, anywhere claiming “zero censorship” either adopts it sooner or later, or disappears - and in every one of those cases, it was a godawful place to be 100% of the time. IME, those who do say they want this tend to be either edgy teenagers, crackpot conspiracy theorists or psychopaths.
Sure, you can say “well, zero censorship except bots” - well that’s censorship, isn’t it? And given no anti-bot tactic is reliable, you’ll be blocking humans. Or you can say, “zero censorship except CSAM, or extreme pornography, or anti-terrorist” and you’re either applying societal laws or your own morality on others. You can’t use “no censor” and “except” in a sentence without contradiction.
If you want zero censorship, I don’t think Lemmy is for you. I don’t think the fediverse is for you. But if you disagree, then run your own instance and put it on an onion address, please stop trying to rant at us for not sharing your views.
I asked if you actually thought I might be subservient to you, or you were willingly making a pointless suggestion to be annoying.
Are you afk, or is that question too hard-hitting and uncomfortable for you to answer?
You waited two hours before demanding a reply? Wow. Funnily enough I don’t live at the keyboard and was away doing interesting real world stuff.
Your other question wasn’t relevant to the subject in my view, so although I wasn’t ignoring you, I will now.
Please stop wasting my time with replies unless you can explain the intentions/motives behind your words
Sure, you can say “well, zero censorship except bots” - well that’s censorship, isn’t it? And given no anti-bot tactic is reliable, you’ll be blocking humans.
Yes, but not on purpose - and if done correctly, not in any way that allows systemic censorship of people for their whole lives (which most of us live through today).
Or you can say, “zero censorship except CSAM, or extreme pornography, or anti-terrorist” and you’re either applying societal laws or your own morality on others.
Right, don’t do that unless you’re just making educational cartoons for very young children or something (definitely not hosting a space for political discussion)
You can’t use “no censor” and “except” in a sentence without contradiction.
I definitely can.
If you want zero censorship, I don’t think Lemmy is for you. I don’t think the fediverse is for you.
Didn’t ask.
But if you disagree, then run your own instance and put it on an onion address, please stop trying to rant at us for not sharing your views.
Do you actually think I might be subservient to you, or are you willingly making a pointless suggestion to be annoying?
My biggest request of the Lemmy devs is that they censor people like you specifically.
I wanted to start blocking the most high-censorship instances until I could find a fully zero-censorship instance and simply block all the ones with censorship. […] I found out there are no zero-censorship instances
Unless you’re using a zero-censorship instance it likely will block zero-censorship instances. So it’s not a surprise you couldn’t find one.
Lemmy relies on a broken “federation” system where each instance is supposed to be able to fetch posts from other instances, but it’s never been finished to reach a fully working state.
You need to define “fully working state”.
Lemmy’s official docs say you can’t even do federation over Tor at all. This means it uses DNS
Not necessarily. It could be possible to use standard IP addresses directly instead of domain names. In fact odds are good that would work already.
So you can only ever have the “average joe lemmy” and “average joe reddit” with everything approved by the authorities, and then “tor copies of lemmy” and “tor copies of reddit” where you have free speech but you can only reach other nerds.
That’s overly simplistic. Under a substantially sensorial authority the “average joe” would out of necessity, become such a nerd.
People seem to think Lemmy is different because this weird censorship fetish is extremely popular and most of you are happy to see bans happen to certain people, not just bots, so a small Lemmy that censors certain people feels fundamentally different from a big reddit that censors more people. But it’s the exact same thing, it’s reddit.
It’s not Reddit. The difference is, democratic censorship vs corporate censorship. Reddit users have no real power over what gets censored or not. On Lemmy they do. If your instance censors something you want to see, there’s little friction in moving to another one.
That’s a big difference.
Unless you think people are owed reach and exposure to a broad platform. In that case yes all censorship is suppressing your right to be heard by everyone in the world.To be clear you don’t have that right.
It’s not actually a solution to reddit. It’s not designed to be different
Censorship isn’t the only way to differentiate from Reddit. Lemmy is also different in countless other ways; Algorithms and advertising to begin with. It’s myopic and supremely egotistical to think your one idea is the only difference that matters.
You need to define “fully working state”.
Since the context was a tool designed to improve reddit’s model by giving clones the ability to “federate” with each other, I guess a “fully working state” would be one where improvement from the reddit model cannot be furthered by adding more ability for clones to “federate” with each other.
Not necessarily. It could be possible to use standard IP addresses directly instead of domain names. In fact odds are good that would work already.
Is this a gish gallop, or do you think IP addresses are like Onion addresses instead of DNS?
That’s overly simplistic. Under a substantially sensorial authority the “average joe” would out of necessity, become such a nerd.
That’s what I’m hoping, yes. There’s also the risk that the planet is just going extinct instead. You can’t just wish for the best and take it for granted. Freedom isn’t free.
It’s not Reddit. The difference is, democratic censorship vs corporate censorship. Reddit users have no real power over what gets censored or not. On Lemmy they do. If your instance censors something you want to see, there’s little friction in moving to another one.
If Lemmy users aren’t using Tor, then they aren’t coordinating to take any authority away from the corporations.
I don’t know how many times you people are going to make me repeat this.
First you were on a small corner of reddit, which was a small corner of the internet, which was a small corner of the screens.
Then the internet got bigger, and reddit got bigger, and now Lemmy is that size corner.
Then Lemmy will either stay this size, or fragment again when it gets bigger.
Without Tor, there’s zero difference.
That’s a big difference.
Nope.
Unless you think people are owed reach and exposure to a broad platform. In that case yes all censorship is suppressing your right to be heard by everyone in the world.
To be clear you don’t have that right.
Again, not making sense, just trying to reframe things in a way where you can insult me.
Censorship isn’t the only way to differentiate from Reddit. Lemmy is also different in countless other ways; Algorithms and advertising to begin with. It’s myopic and supremely egotistical to think your one idea is the only difference that matters.
Incorrect. I’m not the one being egotistical and, depending what “myopic” means, probably not that either. I am focusing on what matters, you are not.
That’s not what a Gish Gallop is.
A rhetorical technique in which a dishonest speaker lists a string of falsehoods or misleading items so that their opponent will be unable to counter each one and still be able to make their own counterpoints.
Myopic
Definition 3: Narrow-mindedAlso you aren’t really connecting the dots well as to how Lemmy can be censored by corporate authorities, or what specifically those are. Explaining those may help your case. Size also, it’s not clear how that really matters to censorship.
That’s not what a Gish Gallop is.
A rhetorical technique in which a dishonest speaker lists a string of falsehoods or misleading items so that their opponent will be unable to counter each one and still be able to make their own counterpoints.
Not clicking your link, but what you quoted here is what a Gish Gallop is, and what the reply I was replying to is (hence why I brought it up)
What’s not? Like, what were you referring to?
Myopic
Definition 3: Narrow-minded
So, like “egotistical,” I’m not the one being myopic
Also you aren’t really connecting the dots well as to how Lemmy can be censored by corporate authorities, or what specifically those are. Explaining those may help your case.
What dots have I not connected?
These posts have a small audience. I’ve said that.
In the past, this small audience was on reddit. I’ve said that.
This audience isn’t much bigger than it was on reddit. There’s no fundamental difference in how censored you are right now, with Lemmy vs reddit. The authorities have successfully kept your audience about as small as they were successfully able to keep it on reddit. I’ve said that.
In the future, if Lemmy tries to grow this audience using its current design, it can’t really get far past where it was on reddit without the authorities fucking it up by blocking IP addresses and domain names. I’ve said that.
I don’t know what new thing to say to “connect the dots,” you’re just making me repeat myself.
Edit - no reply, 2 downvotes. Community full of mentally ill bullies who waste time with bullshit, and then run out of bullshit to say and just stop replying, without admitting they were wrong in any way.
This audience isn’t much bigger than it was on reddit. There’s no fundamental difference in how censored you are right now, with Lemmy vs reddit. The authorities have successfully kept your audience about as small as they were successfully able to keep it on reddit. I’ve said that.
Who are “the authorities” here? The owners of instances? It’s not clear what you’re referring to.
In the future, if Lemmy tries to grow this audience using its current design, it can’t really get far past where it was on reddit without the authorities fucking it up by blocking IP addresses and domain names. I’ve said that.
Why would “the authorities” (whatever that means) block IP addresses and domain names in the event of potential Lemmy growth?
Who are “the authorities” here? The owners of instances? It’s not clear what you’re referring to.
Why are you asking again and acting like it isn’t clear when I’ve answered this question in very clear wording multiple different ways for you already?
Why would “the authorities” (whatever that means) block IP addresses and domain names in the event of potential Lemmy growth?
Same reason they created FCC licenses, same reason they started taking subreddits away from reddit mods by force, etc.
War criminals would find it difficult to keep being granted authority by The People without seeding mental illness and shifting the “overton window” as far as possible from realism
Why are you asking again and acting like it isn’t clear when I’ve answered this question in very clear wording multiple different ways for you already?
You use the word “authorities” in such a vague and bizarre way that it’s like someone just saying “the man!” The “authorities” here seem to be the active userbase, so far as I can tell, and community moderators and instance admins - most of whom all desire a moderated experience as most people on here, as I’ve said, don’t want to use a forum with no rules.
Same reason they created FCC licenses, same reason they started taking subreddits away from reddit mods by force, etc.
Reddit has always been able and willing to take away subreddits from moderators, and has done so since its inception. That doesn’t really have anything with domain names and IP blocking.
Not sure what FCC licences would have to do with anything here. What specific “authority” would even be blocking IP addresses and domain names from Lemmy?
Just host your own fucking instance then nerd
No thanks.
Server admins can host their own instances when Tor support is added, though.
You don’t really want zero censorship.
Not sure what you mean. I really want a dev to make a version of Lemmy with Tor federation so we can have a zero-censorship Lemmy cluster. That is definitely true, not false.
The meaning is closer to “it would not be in your best interest, and you could never hold yourself to it” than “you do not desire it in the abstract”
Depending on how literal you are with “let people send ANYTHING over tor 🐒🔨😃🤜🤛😀💰” I’m downright uncomfortable with this whole concept
Incorrect. It would really be in my best interest. I am holding myself to that right now, by reiterating it in this reply.
What are you actually trying to say? What’s your train of thought here? Just cryptic gaslighting, right?
Not that long ago, after the first big exodus from Reddit to Lemmy, there was a group that decided to mess with Lemmy any way they could.
They spent weeks DDoS-ing it and when that failed to get a reaction there were sudden posts of extreme gore and very explicit child pornography across the front page.
Free speech is nice in theory, but for true anarchist style freedom of speech to exist we would have to tolerate the intolerable.
deleted by creator
Free speech is nice in theory, but for true anarchist style freedom of speech to exist we would have to tolerate the intolerable.
No, you would have to stop.
If you think raping and bombing people is tolerable, but showing you pictures of it isn’t, you are intolerable to me - and I am absolutely the one who’s right, in that conflict.
If you think raping and bombing people is worse than showing you pictures of it, stop fucking around with bullshit and try tolerating the tolerable while not tolerating the intolerable.
If most of the human population is into rape and bombing, wipe out most of the human population until the front page is full of better posts, don’t just shield yourself from posts and call it “not tolerating the intolerable”
If it’s only a minority of the human population, outvote them to fill the front page with better posts
Use science and modern technology to make the world a better place instead of trying to deny the science, ruin the technology, and end the world
Fundamentally, just stop being fucking dishonest
You’re an actual psycho
I didn’t ask.
I think you need to take your meds.
Weak gaslighting attempt, glowie. I just smoke weed. Stop being fucking dishonest
While we’ve got you on the line, what is the appeal of a platform like Nostril? Is it Bluesky for crypto nonces?
You ignored my questions, but I’ll answer yours before asking again.
You can’t be banned from nostr and you’re not tethered to a single “instance” and Tor is supported a little better. As for “nostril,” I bet spelling things wrong on purpose goes hard af when you have 62 IQ.
Now, what I asked before:
What were you trying to say before? What was that train of thought? Just cryptic gaslighting, right?
Go ask the wind, my guess is lots of people ignore your hard-hitting interview questions
Again, this must go hard af when you have 62 IQ
My problem with reddit was not censorship, and I can’t think of why I would want to visit a forum with absolutely no censorship. I want “right” or “good” censorship or however that ends up relating to my values. Lemmy was not designed to address your problems with censorship, but it definitely addresses some problems of censorship.
Same here. I joined lemmy for privacy, the federation that allows smaller communities with very specific interests and moderation and an escape from the capitalist reddit that doesn’t care about it’s users at all.
Why are you wasting my time like I want replies from liars?
“Right” or “good” censorship, as you call it, is censoring bots from political discussion, or censoring pedophiles from a kids’ TV channel, not censoring humans from political discussion.
You’re free to read and respond to any comments you want, you’re the only one who can waste your time.
Talk about blaming others. Interesting person.
Yes, it is interesting that people who discuss things in good faith blame bad faith discussion (and the time wasted therein) on those who choose it.
Incorrect.
Willingly baiting someone to read nonsense in bad faith makes you responsible for wasting their time. You don’t get to blame the victim for being willing to engage in good faith.
Bad faith is bad, good faith isn’t, that’s why they’re called that.
How did the person “bait” you? How is it nonsense? How does the responsibility, how you spend your time, shift to someone else? How are you a victim? How are you arguing in good faith?
So much to unpack.
How did the person “bait” you?
Why do you ask? Is the context deleted now? I don’t feel like scrolling up to check
How does the responsibility, how you spend your time, shift to someone else?
What do you mean? Why would one person’s responsibility shift to someone else? Is that even a thing?
How are you a victim?
Are you asking me to consult a dictionary for you, or asking me to repeat what I said above?
How are you arguing in good faith?
Again, can’t tell what you’re asking here other than “help me use a dictionary”
So much to unpack.
You could get better at doing gish gallops but luckily I’m pretty good at handling them
Edit - I checked and the context was not deleted, so the “how” at the beginning is another weird question
Hahahahahahahahaha what the fuck. I did not bother reading past your first section. Why should I? Waste someone else’s time.
You asked questions, I answered them.
“Waste someone else’s time,” but unironically. I hope you won’t waste mine anymore.
I absolutely think nazis should be censored from political discourse in communities I am involved in.
Didn’t ask, but why did you tell me?
So you seem to think that should never happen?
So was there a reason you told me? I asked this above but you still didn’t answer it
That question baits me to say something I could get banned for here. If your goal is actually to learn something and not just get me banned, try asking me on nostr.
I don’t think you would get banned for saying you don’t believe nazis should be banned.
That’s not what you asked, and it’s much easier to answer, but it can only be answered with a question: banned from what?
They should be banned from eating food non-Nazis need at the same time, but not banned from political discussion.
deleted by creator
Personally I use other platforms for uncensored discussions.
Unfortunately they’re filled with insufferable twats like yourself, but that’s the price we pay for free speech.
It’s obvious for everybody except for you, that Lemmy isn’t intended as a free speech platform, but a means to form your own community based on shared interests and values. That inherently comes with some amount of censorship at the discretion of instance operators. I’m a free speech advocate, but I value and respect individuals’ right to maintain their property (Lemmy instance) as they see fit.
If you want free speech, hop on Simplex where you can yell racial slurs until you’ve satisfied yourself.
Or spin up your own lemmy instance. I’d be happy to join and engage in some debates.
Personally I use other platforms for uncensored discussions.
No you don’t. We use other platforms for less censored discussions. Maybe you use nostr like me but that doesn’t mean either of us has overcome this era of censorship.
Unfortunately they’re filled with insufferable twats like yourself, but that’s the price we pay for free speech.
Yep.
It’s obvious for everybody except for you, that Lemmy isn’t intended as a free speech platform, but a means to form your own community based on shared interests and values.
This is self-contradictory. Which is it?
Not intended for free speech?
Or indeed intended for free speech (freedom to form your own community (discussion space) based on shared interests and values)?
If you want free speech, hop on Simplex where you can yell racial slurs until you’ve satisfied yourself.
Simplex isn’t what I use for free speech, nostr is, and my slurs are generally not racial.
How would you even use Simplex for more free speech? Does it have group chats or something? (I don’t actually care, I’m just mildly confused)
Or spin up your own lemmy instance. I’d be happy to join and engage in some debates.
I will not be spinning up instances of anything. I will seed hashes in bittorrent-like P2P networks, I will put my posts where they fit, I will look for posts from others in the most anti-censorship ways I can find, and I will hope devs and server admins create a version of Lemmy that’s fitting for more of my posts - while hurrying toward a possible future where Tor isn’t enough to make Lemmy relevant anymore, because P2P networks become the only place worth posting anything.
This is self-contradictory. Which is it?
It’s not self-contradictory. Any user created community will have rules designed to keep on-topic. Whether or not its a music community, video game community, national community, pottery community. “Free speech zones” so to speak are contradictory to those goals.
It is self-contradictory.
Reddit has the authority to hijack a subreddit and change the mods and the rules, or just ban it. Reddit staff take that authority, and reddit users grant it.
If you want Lemmy to improve on that, which I also want, that area of improvement is what we call a form of “free speech.”
You cannot accurately say Lemmy should offer this improvement over reddit, but it is not related to free speech. That is just incorrect.
Reddit has the authority to hijack a subreddit and change the mods and the rules, or just ban it. Reddit staff take that authority, and reddit users grant it.
Yes. So do lemmy instances.This is because community moderators don’t actually own any part of the instance they operate on. How is it you imagine Reddit users can somehow not grant it?
But ignoring that, any user-made community has specific topics and themes in mind for what it wants to focus on. This necessarily requires focusing on those things to the explicit censorship of other topics.
How is it you imagine Reddit users can somehow not grant it?
By coding a decentralized P2P reddit and moving there, I guess.
Or just a tor version of Lemmy could be good.
But ignoring that, any user-made community has specific topics and themes in mind for what it wants to focus on. This necessarily requires focusing on those things to the explicit censorship of other topics.
Right, and you can’t pick those other topics for your community, because federation is broken.
Mods please censor this guy
Removed by mod
I think/hope it was a joke.
But none that I’d like or find healthy, to be honest.
I’ve found that the other replies don’t really express my personal take on this, so I’ll go ahead and write mine down.
First of all, and it’s important, people’s take on such topics is heavily dependent on the country they live in. It’s legitimately hard to imagine why you would want to break government rules hard and be a good person if you live somewhere in Norway. And it’s legitimately hard to imagine a world where you really trust your government and think that the current levels of censorship is actually good if you live in a dictatorship country.
With this in mind, a comfortable and universal level of censorship simply doesn’t exist.
I think the lack of Tor support is valid criticism if you’re in a dictatorship. Of course, DNS-based solutions are not good-enough for you. I hope you’ll find something that solves your problems. Unfortunately a simple Lemmy instance is not a solution for you.
Generally, if I’d advise something, I’d suggest to look at what the project actually aims to do, not at what you think it should be doing. E.g. visit https://join-lemmy.org/ and there it says:
Lemmy is a selfhosted social link aggregation and discussion platform. It is completely free and open, and not controlled by any company. This means that there is no advertising, tracking,…
Well, does it sound like a solution made for people in heavily censored environments? To me – not. If you want to present your case and incentivize the Lemmy devs to ADD another perspective or direction to the software that they’re spending time developing, prepare your case and argumentation well. Explain your situation (e.g. “I’ll be hung if I speak freely where I live”, or more relevant, “my country heavily DNS-censors 90% of the good existing Lemmy instances, I’m deprived of good information you have circling here”), propose some solutions or offer help. I don’t know really. It’s up to you. Good luck with your seach
I explained my situation. I want to shift towards a cluster of zero-censorship instances, but I found out they apparently can’t exist because Lemmy blocks Tor (?), so I’m better off just spending less time on Lemmy.
I don’t care that much if devs fix it, I’m just explaining the problem. If it gets fixed, good; if not, the devs who would fix it will do some other good thing; if that’s not enough for the planet to survive, it’s that there aren’t enough good devs, not that they aren’t focused enough on Lemmy. I hope there are enough good devs for the planet to survive, and also for Lemmy to get fixed, though.
