So what you’re saying is if Bob tells me (your name) has a flying tiger, and I later find out you don’t have a flying tiger… you no longer exists?
They did not say someone named Jesus did not exist.
There’s a difference between believing “Joe who had a tiger and a bear and an elephant”, and assuming that there might have been 3 different Joe’s, one with a tiger, one with a bear and one with an elephant, each of them in a different period. Saying “Joe with 3 animals did not exist” does not imply that those Joe’s did not exist.
I’m not a historian but what I’ve heard (must have been on Alex O’Connor’s podcast) is that even some of the possible historical Jesuses (or “Jesusi” :D) had things going on that were not compatible with what the biblical Jesus was all about. (Such as being cult leader proclaiming that world will end in few years.)
Fictionalize any real person to the point absurdity, and you have a fictional non-existent person from a fairy tale. Saying a dude has a flying tiger is just lies. There is a difference. If you can’t see that, I’m cool with that. We’re all allowed to believe things.
Oh you’re the same guy. I don’t remember name calling bit if I did I’m sorry. I had probably started drinking and didn’t mean anything by it. Or something of the sorts. Might’ve caught me at a a bad time .
You’re allowed to be atheist and I’m allowed to be religious. Neither one of us are going to force anything down anyone throats? Then we’re both cool.
As for is Jesus real argument. We both seem to have different ideas of what exactly makes something “real”
In not going to try to convince you Noah’s ark is proven lol. From my view point Jesus past into the threshold of “close enough” you disagree, there’s evidence but you don’t believe it meets that threshold.
Agree to disagree. It’s a battle of semantics at this point.
plumbers exist, so do people named starting with M or J. so do people who walk around and yap about end of the world and/or resurrection. and even people who listen to them.
however…
plumbers that can jump 5 times their own height? people named with M that grow 2x when they eat a mushroom? people that turn water into wine? that’s a completely different story.
sentence like “Jesus did not exist” always need to be interpreted in context. when someone says it in context of religion or adjacent, and you respond by “but people called Jesus existed” then you’re just being obtuse.
or rather, playing Motte and Bailey: f…ing OF COURSE you can defend the that Bob—different one than in the story, in particular, a tigerless Bob—exists, but that’s not what is being disputed. what’s being disputed is the existence of Bob with the tiger, and the motivation is to challenge the whole story.
Again this is just semantics at this point. We have different idea of what’s necessary to be “historically” a real person. You are allowed your opinions. What is life anyway? It’s all philosophical.
But…. If you are enjoying this conversation like I am we can continue.
Was king tut a really person? Did Pharos exist.
What about Charles I of England
Socrates would love to discuss if he counts as real.
the warrens
I’m to impatient to wait so to explain my point.
god kings. Appointed by their many gods with the Devine ability to keep Egypt together
the last god king of England . Last to held to claim they had a direction connection, the the blessed blood line and personally approved by god himself…demanded he should rule England and expand outwards.
there are NO works for Socrates. Not a single scrap of paper. Not a statue made during his life, no grave, no memorial. But countless scholars of the ancient world repeat his teaching and give him credit.
Socrates is one of the most well know ln philosophers of all time and there isn’t any proof he ever lived.
4 they have a house, they might be alive, you could meet them! and several books about how they can sense the spiritual world and fight demons and hold possessed dolls in their safe room.
Do those people exist?
Socrates is one of the most well know ln philosophers of all time and there isn’t any proof he ever lived.
when is the fact about the level of certainty we have about Socrates’s existence relevant, though? it depends.
if someone just mentions some specific idea that is often attributed to Socrates, then it’s probably totally irrelevant and you would be just "well, actually"ing someone. (which will backfire esp. if they actually know that full well and can/will stand for themselves)
if someone is defending a specific idea using an argument from authority of Socrates himself, then it’s probably pretty relevant. at best it’s an invitation to skip a bad argument path and take the focus back to the potential merit of the idea itself. (ofc this is regardless of whether you like that idea or not, learning what the other person perceive as valuable about the idea is usually more interesting than who they think came up with it)
if someone does the same but based on moral authority, then it’s the same principle, but probably much more important
if someone creates religion based on teachings of Socrates, then it’s pretty much important (although often seemingly ineffective, and in some cases, risky)
If someone starts asking questions about Socrates as a historical person (and heck, even questions specifcally about history of Socrates’ state of mind–see title of this whole post), then it’s obviously the most important thing they need to learn before continuing their research or pondering.
The last point bullet point describes what @Phoenixz did here, in the beginning of this sub-thread. (Just for Jesus Christ, not Socrates, of course.)
people exist, plumbers exist, people named mario exist, is there a plumber that can grow twice his size, shot fireballs using a flower, can jump four times his height unassisted, or fights a giant sentient reptile that breaths fire? no.
you can argue jesus was a man, but he is not the jesus of the bible.
They did not say someone named Jesus did not exist.
There’s a difference between believing “Joe who had a tiger and a bear and an elephant”, and assuming that there might have been 3 different Joe’s, one with a tiger, one with a bear and one with an elephant, each of them in a different period. Saying “Joe with 3 animals did not exist” does not imply that those Joe’s did not exist.
I’m not a historian but what I’ve heard (must have been on Alex O’Connor’s podcast) is that even some of the possible historical Jesuses (or “Jesusi” :D) had things going on that were not compatible with what the biblical Jesus was all about. (Such as being cult leader proclaiming that world will end in few years.)
He said Jesus is a fictional figure. He probably existed and yes there were more than one person with similar but that doesn’t change my argument.
If you say “this is Bob and he has a tiger” and I find out he does not have a tiger… he still exists as a person.
But you say “the stories about Bob don’t line up with any specific Bob”
Okay, that doesn’t stop Bob from being just because someone got a story wrong.
Complete asinine argument.
Fictionalize any real person to the point absurdity, and you have a fictional non-existent person from a fairy tale. Saying a dude has a flying tiger is just lies. There is a difference. If you can’t see that, I’m cool with that. We’re all allowed to believe things.
Oh you’re the same guy. I don’t remember name calling bit if I did I’m sorry. I had probably started drinking and didn’t mean anything by it. Or something of the sorts. Might’ve caught me at a a bad time .
You’re allowed to be atheist and I’m allowed to be religious. Neither one of us are going to force anything down anyone throats? Then we’re both cool.
As for is Jesus real argument. We both seem to have different ideas of what exactly makes something “real”
In not going to try to convince you Noah’s ark is proven lol. From my view point Jesus past into the threshold of “close enough” you disagree, there’s evidence but you don’t believe it meets that threshold.
Agree to disagree. It’s a battle of semantics at this point.
I finished this argument 6 days ago. Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves.
now you are just talking about some different guy named bob.
mario is based on a person, but mario is a fictional character
Mario is based on a plumber. Do plumbers exist?
plumbers exist, so do people named starting with M or J. so do people who walk around and yap about end of the world and/or resurrection. and even people who listen to them.
however…
plumbers that can jump 5 times their own height? people named with M that grow 2x when they eat a mushroom? people that turn water into wine? that’s a completely different story.
sentence like “Jesus did not exist” always need to be interpreted in context. when someone says it in context of religion or adjacent, and you respond by “but people called Jesus existed” then you’re just being obtuse.
or rather, playing Motte and Bailey: f…ing OF COURSE you can defend the that Bob—different one than in the story, in particular, a tigerless Bob—exists, but that’s not what is being disputed. what’s being disputed is the existence of Bob with the tiger, and the motivation is to challenge the whole story.
But Mario the plumber existed.
Again this is just semantics at this point. We have different idea of what’s necessary to be “historically” a real person. You are allowed your opinions. What is life anyway? It’s all philosophical.
But…. If you are enjoying this conversation like I am we can continue.
Was king tut a really person? Did Pharos exist.
What about Charles I of England
Socrates would love to discuss if he counts as real.
the warrens
I’m to impatient to wait so to explain my point.
god kings. Appointed by their many gods with the Devine ability to keep Egypt together
the last god king of England . Last to held to claim they had a direction connection, the the blessed blood line and personally approved by god himself…demanded he should rule England and expand outwards.
there are NO works for Socrates. Not a single scrap of paper. Not a statue made during his life, no grave, no memorial. But countless scholars of the ancient world repeat his teaching and give him credit.
Socrates is one of the most well know ln philosophers of all time and there isn’t any proof he ever lived.
4 they have a house, they might be alive, you could meet them! and several books about how they can sense the spiritual world and fight demons and hold possessed dolls in their safe room. Do those people exist?
when is the fact about the level of certainty we have about Socrates’s existence relevant, though? it depends.
if someone just mentions some specific idea that is often attributed to Socrates, then it’s probably totally irrelevant and you would be just "well, actually"ing someone. (which will backfire esp. if they actually know that full well and can/will stand for themselves)
if someone is defending a specific idea using an argument from authority of Socrates himself, then it’s probably pretty relevant. at best it’s an invitation to skip a bad argument path and take the focus back to the potential merit of the idea itself. (ofc this is regardless of whether you like that idea or not, learning what the other person perceive as valuable about the idea is usually more interesting than who they think came up with it)
if someone does the same but based on moral authority, then it’s the same principle, but probably much more important
if someone creates religion based on teachings of Socrates, then it’s pretty much important (although often seemingly ineffective, and in some cases, risky)
If someone starts asking questions about Socrates as a historical person (and heck, even questions specifcally about history of Socrates’ state of mind–see title of this whole post), then it’s obviously the most important thing they need to learn before continuing their research or pondering.
The last point bullet point describes what
@Phoenixzdid here, in the beginning of this sub-thread. (Just for Jesus Christ, not Socrates, of course.)You didn’t mention the king tho. Did he exist? He was gods spokesmen to the kingdom
people exist, plumbers exist, people named mario exist, is there a plumber that can grow twice his size, shot fireballs using a flower, can jump four times his height unassisted, or fights a giant sentient reptile that breaths fire? no.
you can argue jesus was a man, but he is not the jesus of the bible.
LOL, I didn’t read your post and made basically the exact same argument.
at least I’m happy I’m not wasting my time on social media alone 🙃
Right so Jesus existed . Glad we agree.
The way I see it is I said “Jesus at the very least existed and was vocal enough to be mentioned “
You’re argument is stomping your feet and saying “but that wasn’t YOUR Jesus so you are wrong”
It’s sounds really pathetic hearing you two try to disprove my idea of Jesus doesn’t exist when you haven’t even ask who I think Jesus was lol.
You don’t even know what my argument is you just know I’m wrong lol. Pathetic.