What is Grayjay?
Grayjay is a cutting-edge app that serves as a video player and source aggregator. It allows you to stream and organize videos from various sources, providing a unified platform for your entertainment needs.
It’s mostly used as a YouTube frontend^. However, it is now launching as a desktop app for Linux, Mac and Windows.
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I really wish there was a truly open source version of GrayJay because GrayJay is actually Not OpenSource It’s a cool application, don’t get me wrong, but it NEEDS to be OpenSource & not “Source-First/Source-Available”
Yikes. I’ll be sticking with NewPipe and other FOSS apps.
It is open source, just not free open source
Typically licenses not OSI approved are referred to as “Source available” rather than “Open source”. This is one reason FUTO (who make Grayjay) refer to their license as “Source first” and not “Open Source” (though they did call it that for a while before clarifying and switching to the new term).
My take: OSI needs to include noncommercial licenses. Companies like Mongo and Redis have to end up creating their own licenses with GPL poison pills just to survive commercial use, why not create a system where companies that want to be, and support, an “open source” ecosystem can thrive?
Open Source existed before OSI.
Proprietary source-available software existed before open source software, and that’s what these restricted licenses are. The FOSS community does not appreciate businesses co-opting the term open source to promote software that doesn’t grant users the right to use the source code for any purpose.
As a member of the FOSS community, and someone who has written an absolute truckload of FOSS software, I stand by what I said.
Open Source was coined before OSI was formed. OSI, and the previous launch of GNU by Stallman, was to combat the new (at the time) practice of only releasing machine code and the commercial vehicles that came along with it.
The original spirit of sharing source code for projects in academia, before software required so much more effort, still exists in licenses like SSPLv1, etc, that are not adopted by OSI.
I, personally, think this is a bad decision.
I, personally, feel that an organization that wishes to make their products source-available, especially those that allow noncommercial modification, should be recognized for that, not punished or gate kept.
I, personally, would love to see OSI adopt an open attitude towards those types of organizations, and create another official tier in the lexicon with it’s own set of standard licenses that fit under it.
I understand and accept that other’s don’t feel that way, but that does not make their opinion about what should count as “open” any better than my own, just more widely accepted at the time.
Nobody has any objection to companies making their source code available, and they are free to call their software “source-available”, “source-first”, or some other term because their source code is available. But if they restrict what users can do with the software, then it isn’t open source. MongoDB, Redis, and even FUTO now all recognize this distinction.
The FOSS community, at large, doesn’t tolerate the watering down of recognized terms such as “open source” by bad actors who want to co-opt the term for marketing while denying users the right to use open source software for any purpose. That is known as openwashing. This kind of misappropriation is not welcome in any kind of movement, not just the FOSS movement.
The free software and open source software movements both support rights for users, which include the right to use free software and open source software for all commercial purposes without restriction. These movements support the release of source code as one requirement for ensuring these user rights, but source availability is not the only requirement for a piece of software to be open source.
There’s no problem with creating another classification of restricted source-available licenses as long as it isn’t called open source, a term rooted in the open source software movement’s adoption of the Open Source Definition for over 20 years.
As for myself, I personally prefer source-available software over software with no source available, though I also prefer FOSS over restrictively licensed source-available software.
I 100% agree with all of this. Grayjay should not be considered FOSS or “Open Source”. But I, like Stallman of before, don’t like the choice of Open Source as representative of Free and Open Source. I am in the minority and will of course live with that.
I just wish that since OSI has a hold of the terms, and those who aren’t as knowledgeable as yourself will default to “not OSI = bad” that they would open the doors to another tier. The world is very different now than it was in the 80s.
A good example is Codeberg, an Org I’m a huge fan of, only list OSI licenses in their drop down, and actively focus on adoption of OSI licenses, when I would be happy to see SSPLv1 software there.
It’s the reason some of my professional (corporate) projects can’t leverage Codeberg and continue to use GitHub, while others I run for the same organization can be since they are MIT.
U hate it when companies start with those mental gymnastics exercises to pretend they’re open source so they can get more people that way
You’re open source or you’re not. In this case, you’re not, so stop pretending. It makes me want to try your app even less.
They have talked a bit about what they are trying to do. It’s backed by Silicon Valley billionaire Eron Wolf, and he has talked about his frustration with everyone putting their blood, sweat, and tears into the software and then someone like Facebook comes along and makes billions from the work of others.
I get it’s frustrating, but personally I think it fails to see that Facebook is part of the ecosystem, but also so are many small companies, and many of these are contributing back to the software. If you remove the companies then you have removed a significant source of help. Eron wants to replace this with an expectation that people pay for their software, he wants to normalise paying for OSS so OSS doesn’t have to rely on the companies. You can see this in how FUTO keyboard using language implying you need to pay to get a license, but also it holds no features back from you and doesn’t nag if you don’t pay.
Personally I welcome new ways of thinking but even if the pay for your OSS thing works I think companies are uniquely placed to contribute in ways that a small team relying on purchases is never going to be able to replicate.
I don’t hold any ill will though, I think their heart is in the right place, albeit having missed what makes FOSS special.
And by “clarifying” you mean “dunking on Open Source and parading around like the saviors of the human race for inventing Open-Source-except-with-donation-nags-to-fund-their-fully-for-profit-business.” Good job, guys, you’ve solved enshittification (/s).
One of the goals of source first licenses is to stop enshittification since it doesn’t allow paid clones
Not saying I agree with their policy, but I would hope more for-profit businesses make their source code available
This is basically Proprietary Licencing in a way
One of the goals of source first licenses is to stop enshittification since it doesn’t allow paid clones
Copyleft prevents enshittification much better than anything in their license. If someone makes a paid clone of some, for instance, AGPL 3.0 program, one person can buy it and release the source code of the paid version and then all of the improvements can be incorporated back into the version from which it was forked.
Unless the paid clone makers go so far as to break the terms of the license. But that’s not a problem that the Grayjay license solves any better than the AGPL 3.0.
Grayjay’s license is itself a textbook example of enshittification.
Not saying I agree with their policy, but I would hope more for-profit businesses make their source code available
I’m not pissed at FUTO for releasing their source code under a non-FOSS license. I’m pissed at them for doing everything in their power to sabotage Open Source specifically to serve their bottom line while also pretending they’re some champion of consumer rights in tech. And it’s really shitty to use a
.orgaddress to further drive home the lie that they’re anything but a for-profit company fucking over consumers to make a profit.The original clone keeps making money from people who don’t know any better, even if it’s an exact replica. Just look at the windows app store
Why is that a problem?
But they do provide a good alternative for watching videos on multiple platforms without ads, without subscriptions or anything. And the app works if you don’t pay as well. Just because they ask money for their hard work while at the same time allowing the community to work with it sounds all good to me. It’s just not completely open source and completely free. But feel free to make a non-profit true open source counterpart if you like :)
I don’t mind them asking for money. As I said just a moment ago in another comment, “I’m pissed at them for doing everything in their power to sabotage Open Source specifically to serve their bottom line while also pretending they’re some champion of consumer rights in tech.” I wouldn’t honestly be as pissed at them if they a) had just admitted from the get-go that they were a for-profit company with no actual interest in improving/solving enshittification and b) had never coopted the term “Open Source” or dunked on Open Source.
But feel free to make a non-profit true open source counterpart if you like
Yeah but Newpipe doesn’t have Rumble, BiliBili, NicoNico & Odysee (With Additional provisions to add your own sources)
Aniyomi on the other hand
Haha yeah I do find the licence a bit weird. Kind of a non-commercial licence but there are definitely some parts that I don’t quite get.
I have seen Eron Wolf talking a bit about what he is trying to do. I get his frustrations, but am not convinced their licence helps with those at all. You can’t really take open source, take away some freedoms that are sometimes taken advantage of, and pretend that removing those freedoms didn’t remove the benefits that are the reason those freedoms existed in the first place.
It’s proprietary
No it’s not. SF license allows for noncommercial modification, and it is Source Available.
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So Proprietary
Again, no. The article you link specifically mentions problems with proprietary software that FUTO dislikes, not that Grayjay is proprietary.
The definition: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proprietary
Grayjay’s license does not fit this definition.
FUTO has exclusive rights to monetize it, If I do a better job then I should be paid no ?
That’s my argument above. No, you should not.
FUTO isn’t releasing this as FOSS, but they are doing something much better than most by releasing source available with noncommercial modification.
If you create your own solution, then yes, you should.
I think OSI should consider another tier of licenses that aren’t FOSS but still “open” (source available), I don’t think Grayjay should he considered FOSS (nor do they).
I am working on an alternative
Spill the beans!
Cannot release yet because I need to “plugin out” the youtube part which was integrated directly into the flutter app in my earlier builds, will be open source
All good, look forward to seeing what you have made 😊
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Oof, couldn’t help yourself huh?
Grayjay mobile is awesome, very much looking forward to checking this out. Love how it puts all my YouTube, Patreon, Twitch and Peertube content in one place.
95℅ of the time my Patreon feeds fail to load. This isn’t your experience?
There’s an occasional error popup during playback, but the feeds and video still work here. I’m on Grayjay v268 w/ Patreon v17
My biggest issue is Peertube tbh, discovery is difficult, border line useless.
Why can’t they be a website than an app for Dekstop?
Also understood that they’re not open-source but are they privacy-respecting?
Edit: Went through their privacy policy and seems they’re privacy-focused. I will be trying their app now.
Yeah if you know who’s behind Futo (Louis Rossman) you will know he fights very hard for better privacy across the board among other things that are better for us consumers.
Edit: Futo being the company behind this app and other privacy respective apps.
when it comes to right to repair he’s amazing. that being said, however, he hasn’t had much positive to say about the SteamDeck which is leagues ahead of something like the Nintendo switch in terms of user freedoms and customizability.
Granted that’s like one take I disagree with compared to ALL he’s done but I’m still surprised he hasn’t made a followup about how much good it’s done for Linux in general considering he’s been using Linux since it was in a physical box lol
the app is source available, it places some restrictions on modifications of the source code, but the code is fully available
Personally I’ve been using FreeTube for accessing YouTube as they are FOSS. Only thing I wish they would have a feature to share like subs with Tubular and watch history somehow. It doesn’t have all the platforms Grayjay has but for just YouTube its pretty great
The peertube app recently launched and its pretty decent for a first release
It’s an alpha release, so expect it to be buggy. Overall this is a good thing. We need more frontends.
Yes, finally! I’ve been using the mobile app, and it has been nothing but amazing.
That’s awesome. I love the grayjay mobile app. I need more non YouTube creators to follow though
Is there a Flatpak?
Not yet. Had to manually download.
I am linux noob, they provided a .zip file for linux. Do I need to use the command line to install it?
You just unzip it and run it
Thanks. I’m running PopOS Cosmic Alpha and it doesn’t like the executable, and since its in alpha there’s features missing in this DE that would allow me (linux noob) to easily install it. I’ll try installing Grayjay again when my OS / DE is in beta or something.
Pro tip from one Linux noob to another, chatgpt allowed me to take the leap from not understanding Linux well enough to make it work on my own to making it work and doing a few advanced things.
Chatgpt has pretty decent usefulness even without buying the subscription nowdays if you don’t want to do that, so glad I did this!
Thank you, that helped. I used perplexity and double checked the sources (so I don’t end up running hallucinatory code).
I was able to get it running
That’s awesome!
That zip file is just one command away from an appimage
Mobile app has been the best YouTube app replacement I’ve found. And I just got the pop up about the desktop app on my drive home from work. Will for sure check it out.
I wish it more closely mirrored YouTube’s native video suggestions, but it’s pretty damn close.
No website version? I hope the desktop app isn’t Electron-based then.
Edit: It is. What the fuck?
Epic!
Lots of desktop front ends.
Meanwhile I got to emulate Android to run S-Tube because there’s nothing good for remote control use for Plasma Bigscreen.
At least my Bigscreen “easy to use” legit package might be done soon.
Honestly the mobile app doesn’t work for such long periods of time that I’ve all but given up and gone back to YouTube.
If anyone knows an app to replace YouTube that is actually reliable then let me know! I’m in the market.
What do you mean it doesnt work for longer periods of time? Been flawless for me ever since I started using it.
It either restarts part way through or stops playing as if it can’t buffer anymore.
It comes and goes, sometimes I’ll go a couple of weeks of it working fine then for a week or more i get the above issues.
…truth?
Run your own yt-dlp frontend. Punchflat… or one of the many other solutions out there. Dump your subs to a folder and let Jellyfin turn them into individual shows with episodes.
I shouldn’t have to do that!
Don’t tell me. Tell Google, or… pay them, I guess. Your call. I’ll be over here turning my lemons into lemonade. You do whatever you want with yours.
Did you just have a whole conversation with yourself? Lol at least give me a chance to respond.
Thanks for the recommendation.
I suspect common responses and prepare for them.
The “canned answer”.
I appreciate why you’re doing that and am just offering feedback you are welcome to ignore: it made me think you’re a bit of a douche and I didn’t feel like interacting with you much after that.
Oh, I am, good call.
Can you tell me more about these yt-dlp frontends? I’ve been looking for one for a long time, but I haven’t really found any. I was thinking of using mov-cli instead so I atleast have a search feature.
Look for YouTube webuis on docker.
https://github.com/kieraneglin/pinchflat
Punchflat can dump YouTube channels on schedules in a way that Plex and Jellyfin can digest them as shows and put them up like any other show. You can auto-delete old episodes as they get old to keep your data low, or simply roll one or two month’s of your subscriptions and barely keep anything.
https://github.com/gallofeliz/youtube-dl-webui
Simpler and more like a gun you aim at urls and download them. More hands-on… Pinchflat is the only one I know that integrates with Plex and Jellyfin.
Thanks, I’ll look into these.
The other most used frontends are Newpipe(and it’s forks) aswell as Revanced.
Will check them out, cheers
I’m on Newpipe, it only rarely stopped working like this.
